Speedicus Maximus commented last week on a blog post about Major Spowers and Windlesham Arboretum, noting the changes since his last visit. Being someone, like him, who enjoys a walk in the countryside I set myself a challenge to visit the Arboretum.
Just as Speedicus Maximus has said, it’s been quite a while too, since I last visited. And like him I found much has changed, with The Windlesham Arboretum Charitable Trust now being called The Spowers Charitable Trust [SCT].
I’ve no desire to be overly critical of the changes, other than to say the preponderance of notices to tell you what you can’t do is depressing. Some of the notices are confusing – hopefully unintentionally so. The ones that say “Access is permitted at the following times: Outside BST: 7am – 5pm, During BST: 7am – 7pm” presumably apply to non-public rights of way. Public rights of way over the SCT land are open at all times, without restraint.
The Trust’s stated mission – to encourage an interest in birds and trees - is laudable. With such a mission, one might reasonably assume a desire to increase membership of the Trust so that others can share in that mission. No such desire is expressed in any notice. The obvious changes are the extensive work to the bridleways, gates, and hedgerow planting. Apart from these changes I’d say the place is being managed with benign neglect.
Perhaps someone will tell me that I’ve got it all wrong. I hope so.
“Benign neglect …. ” – captures it well .
I thought my original comment had mentioned that the acres of sward were totally untended, and some of the magnificent vistas, leading the eye to a feature (eg the huge old wheel & its circular stone runner, the statues & huge urns) have sadly gone due to the unbridled growth of the flora.
The Accounts of the SCT can be found online – make strange reading too !
By: Speedicus Maximus on September 12, 2012
at 8:18 am
Tim, I’m grateful that you and others have exposed the changes on the Spowers Estate which are to no benefit other than the family. The Major would turn in his grave to see the changes to his dream of the countryside for everyone. This is especially the case for young children who can greatly benefit from time in the outdoors being exposed to wildlife. My wife frequently walked over the footpaths of the estate during the 40 years we have lived in Lightwater. Yet when she came to pass on this treat to our young 2 year old Grandson she was prevented from doing so because the new “kissing gates” installed will not allow a push chair to pass through. I do not know if this meets with Foot Path approval but it certainly does not continue the spirit of open grounds held so dear by Major Spowers.
Times do change but not always for the better.
By: Peter Godfrey on September 12, 2012
at 4:50 pm
Tim, I agree. I walked through the arboretum the other day to find hundreds of new saplings planted alongside the footpaths, clearly to keep people from freely wandering the rest of the site, especially once grown; your “benign neglect” comment seems apt, though I saw the allowance of growth as a deliberate act to stop the wandering. As Speedicus says, Major Spowers would turn in his grave; but it is not public land, and the owners can do as they desire. A real pity for Lightwater.
One thing I would say in their defence around closing the land: on many occasions I’ve found evidence of drinking at various locations around the site (mainly the “temple” by the carp pond, but at other places too), and of course there is graffiti emerging as well. Perhaps the strain of constantly cleaning up got too much for the Trust?
You could always drop them a line, Tim – as cllr they should respond.
By: leftoflightwater on September 14, 2012
at 9:18 pm
I have been walking my dog in the Arboretum every day for over 3 years with many of my neighbours and have been dismayed at the way the Arboretum has changed in the last 12 months. Signs everywhere, gates everywhere and even a sign to say that they now have their own security. I feel there is a much bigger picture here and possibly to do with something being built on Major Spowers beloved land in due course. I hope this is not the site being considered for a superstore or maybe new houses. With so much of the land being fenced off and areas widened for possible traffic I am sure this is the start of a new project that no doubt will soon be revealed. Such a shame as this once was the jewel of Windlesham and Lightwater but sadly no more. It is now mainly a muddy area surrounded by signs stating don’t do this, don’t do that, and bizarely that children under 16 to be accompanied by any adult. There are new gates,fences and barbed wire springing up on nearly a weekly basis. Desperately sad..
By: Kathy on October 24, 2012
at 2:12 pm
Some of us will remember with gratitude how Major Spowers welcomed the youth of the Community.The parent and son camp for The Cub Pack was enjoyed by many and the Major attended the camp fire in his full dress unform in the evening. Things have changed!
By: Chris and Tom Emery on October 25, 2012
at 1:25 pm
Major Spowers’ generosity in years gone by is clearly lost on whoever is now making the decisions. As we know nothing is forever but the changes are quite radical and the endless signs seem to want to make any current visitors feel almost unwelcomed. So sad.
By: Kathy on October 25, 2012
at 2:32 pm
To encourage an interest in trees and wildlife I will take my family to the country park, Chobham or Horsell commons.
The only thing this place encouraged was my youngest to read the plethoria of signage telling her every thing she couldnt do.
There were not a lot of expensive signs giving us interesting facts about the place’s history and original intentions.
I have queried the right of access for push bikes with Surrey County Council.
not so much the riding but the pushing or carrying?
My family and I got the hump reading all the things that we couldnt do.
if you want to encourage people to appreciate trees and wildlife then this is not the place to do it.
Rob
By: robert beere on November 11, 2012
at 8:36 pm
I totally agree, Robert. I was there at the weekend (having been other friendly and more welcoming places to walk my dog) and the amount of barbed wire now going up is unbelievable. Dog owners be warned as if your dog tries to chase a squirrel for instance, or a deer wants to run free they now either have to jump a lot of high fences or risk being torn to shreds by badly placed barbed wired fencing. There are also what appears to be guard huts going up. The arboretum is starting to resemble a site for a prison than the place we use to enjoy to walk our dogs, take photos and enjoy the gorgeous lakes and features. A crying shame to see the horrendous transformation over the last year.
By: Kathy on November 12, 2012
at 12:55 pm
It is six months since my last visit and I found my walk around there today unsatisfying in the extreme. Signs everywhere which might as well say “go away” and muddy paths, blocked at random intervals with fencing and seemingly being “improved” in a way that serves only to remind you of the adjacent motorway rather than than to act as a haven from it. Very disappointing, but it’s their land and I suppose they can do with it whatever they like.
By: Paul on November 18, 2012
at 5:47 pm
Having been back to the Arboretum again this weekend the whole place just looks sad and unkempt. There is now a combination lock on an area in the centre of the Arboretum that is surrounded by dangerous barbed wire. The other end has been completely fenced off with no way of access to walk through the central area. There are areas that have been dug up for months that is now just a very large muddy bog. It is desperately sad that a place that was a jewel in Windlesham’s crown has been ruined not only for those dog walkers and ramblers that once enjoyed walking in the Arboretum but also for the wildlife that are now is surrounded by something reminiscent of a fortress.
By: Kathy on January 28, 2013
at 3:13 pm
Arcadia has become a prison, with trust resources devoted to owners privacy..Social segregation has been enforced, with destruction of a thriving community of friends.Beauty is replaced by destructive neglect.Who wants to walk in a place where noone is welcomed-and all those prohibited signs.
By: Tom on January 29, 2013
at 2:59 pm
https://vimeo.com/58520194
Windlesham Arboretum « Lightwater
Filmed at Windlesham Arboretum « Lightwater a very very cool place that no one knows is there right next to the busiest motorway in England Wow what a place
Filmed using a Nikon D5100 and a Panasonic D38
Music By Zardonic & Playma – Kickass
By: Jj Coronet on January 30, 2013
at 9:55 am
To everyone who has commented on this blog,
I have been an employee at the Arboretum and have to say…. i agree with you all, the work we conducted was said to be beneficial to the estate by encouraging birds to the area and educate the public about the flora and fauna species there. But all i saw was the desire to make money, Adam spowers (the man who now owns the place) son of the Major planned to create various ‘members only areas’ with the hopes of attracting more paying members of the publi.
In reality he has lost over half of all the public members that used to visit the site, during my time there i spoke to various mmebers of the public and they, like all of you were appauled with the level of change and constructuon occuring in the area and even the residents living on site in Standway house and Harishaws have moved out.
In some cases i can see where Adam is coming from as more members would increase the funding to the arboretum and as you can imagin places like that need this kind of funding for management and repairs, but i feel he is going the wrong way about it. The intention of the new planting was to ‘create areas for insects and nesting birds’ which will be achieved but was actually a project to creat these members areas and prevent the public from walking throught the estate which is stupid.
I had various plans for the place including new management techniques and ways to fund the site, including the introductuon of foraging areas where members of the public could harvest mushrooms, fruit and herbs as self-sustainability is getting more popular and (as i am trained for it) setting up a small scale greenwood craft centre using the woodland products found within the estate and selling them to visitors to increase funding, all of which i felt couldnt be heard or implimented as i am ‘young and dont know what i’m doing’ in truth i am a 19yr old student who studies Countryside Management at Merrist wood college in Guildford so i do in fact know what in talking about in terms of management. Anyway i feel i’ve had my rant, thank you for reading.
Rich
By: Rich on March 1, 2013
at 4:22 pm
Thanks for sharing that Rich.
By: Speedicus Triplicatum on March 1, 2013
at 5:38 pm
Dear Rich,
It is very kind of you to update those of us who are interested in what is happening at The Windlesham Arboretum and your total honesty and personal views of about the changes that have been made. I am sure many of us agree that making changing for the benefit of both the wildlife and the members is certainly not a bad thing but I am afraid the way it has been done has taken many of us by total surprise. I do hope there maybe a way of reversing some of what has been done although I fear that many of the original and loyal paying members will probably not now return.
Your personal ideas and visions seem very interesting and I hope management will in time, reconsider their views on ways to increase revenue. In time it would be nice to turn it back into the wonderful, welcoming place it once was and clearly the place the late Major Spowers intended it to be. Funding is clearly an issue and I fully understand that this has to be addressed but not in the manner it has been to date with such big changes which have clearly alienated so many people who were such big supporters of the Arboretum and all it originally stood for .
Thanks again for taking the time to comment and I personally would be grateful of any further updates as long as it does not get you into any trouble with your employers!
Kathy
By: Kathy on March 4, 2013
at 9:45 am
Hello
Sorry where are you talking about? When you refer to Windlesham Arboretum do you mean South Farm???? I grew up on South Farm, my Grandad had it all his life.
Barbara Trowbridge
By: Barbara Trowbridge on April 2, 2013
at 4:38 pm
Hallo Barbara – South Farm is now ‘part’ of the Arboretum … and still occupied. It can be accessed via the track from the cul-de-sac that was once the Guildford Rd (by the M3 r’bout – isolated when the A322 bypass was built in the mid-70s) .
The Arboretum was originally 2 pieces of land, one owned by the Nursery of which S.Farm was the main dwelling, and further south by Major Spowers – who bought and merged the properties; he continued to develop the area with lakes and magnificent vistas, whilst creating a Trust to stop the land falling into the clutches of developers …
The Arboretum is thus a large triangle, bounded by the M3 to the northeast, the A322 to the west and Broadway Rd (Lightwater to Windlesham) in the south.
By: Speedicus Triplicatum on April 3, 2013
at 9:37 am
Thanks Speedicus for top class reply with information new to me.
By: timdodds on April 3, 2013
at 11:40 am
I recently walked over the arboretum and was appalled at the changes! I will not be coming back…..it is such a shame. I have lived in Windlesham for over 20 years and have enjoyed the freedom of the lovely walks found at the arboretum in those years with my growing family. Now all the footpaths are segregated and one is unable to roam freely. Barbed wire is EVERYWHERE!!!!
By: Anna on April 4, 2013
at 1:48 pm
Unfortunately the area so many of us have enjoyed with our growing families will no longer be available to our gr andchildren. An example of how children do not have the same values as their parents. The world need more people of major spowers vision.
By: PeterGodfrey on April 5, 2013
at 11:11 am
Sadly, the changes made appear to be financially motivated which in times of recession I can appreciate although what I personally find hard to understand is the way that these changes have been made with no consideration to the animals or humans that have enjoyed this area for so many years. They have changed a beautiful area of Windlesham into somewhere that you no longer feel welcomed. Many of the nicest areas have been fenced or blocked off and the barbed wire is unsightly and dangerous for animals and children alike. It really is so sad to see Major Spowers’ selfless legacy spoilt in this way.
By: Kathy on April 5, 2013
at 3:49 pm
Ok went back yesterday found all the best bits are completely barb wire fenced off, the only people allowed in are members, so i think there is a big trick being missed here if all there want to do is make money from a limited few, they should put a fence round the entire site remove all the guard huts and have 2 pay to get out car park like in Virginia water or Alice holt , i would visit 4 to 5 times a year and £7 for a day parking that should cover the limited member scheme that excludes the public, its so prety in there is really makes me sad that i wont be able to see it any more
By: jjccc coronet on April 21, 2013
at 7:48 pm
I had not visited the arboretum for some time until this morning and I was very disappointed to see further barbed wire has been put up which is entirely out of place in an area which only a few years ago was so beautiful and serene.
The site does now make you think of a prison yard with the many unnecessary signs reminding people of things they cannot do (in case they have forgotten since seeing the same sign fifty feet before). It even appears that a couple of guard towers have been errected.
Such a shame that a lovely area like that has been ruined.
I think in future I will walk my dog in the country park instead.
By: Imogen on April 22, 2013
at 3:24 pm
It seems that matters @ The Arboretum are having an impact on other local dog-walking areas: Brentmoor Heath & New England Hill (off the Red Road near the A322 roundabout) is seeing an increase in visitors and hence car parking. People I have met on Brentmoor of late repeat the same sad, sorry facts about The Arboretum …..
Others tell me that Lightwater Country Park now insists that dogs are kept on leads during the bird-nesting season (coupled with the unsightly fencing put up a couple of years back to stop people & dogs tramping through the heather) – again increasing Brentmoor’s visitors …
I suspect that Brentmoor’s SWT ‘Ranger’ will be making changes there too, as he is very protective of the Brentmoor Habitat – esp nesting birds like the Dartford Warbler…….
By: Speedicus Triplicatum on April 23, 2013
at 8:46 am
I spoke to a local dog walker last week from Windlesham who said there was a horrific incident recently with a young deer who got caught on the barbed wire fencing. Luckily, it managed to free itself but appeared badly injured in the process. I am now seeing large clumps of fur on various bits of the barbed wire. Why can not more animal friendly fencing be used. Do people that run this Arboretum really not understand that animals cannot use the combination locks dividing these areas for members and non members and are getting injured trying to move freely around the Arboretum as they use to. I notice that the public bridleways have now been covered although there is still large amounts of glass and sharp objects lurking just beneath the surface. This is not safe for those horses still using the bridleway. Perhaps, the local council needs to investigate. There is a public footpath and a public bridleway running through part the Arboretum and if the owners or trustee’s want to raise more money, I fully understand but surely it is crucial to make the place animal friendly even if they have now deterred many of the local dog walkers, ramblers and those who use to love visiting this once wonderful jewel of Windlesham ! Rant over…… for now.
By: Kathy on May 8, 2013
at 4:48 pm
just went to west green house garden today which is very similar to the arbouretum in windlesham they charge £8 per person or you can get in if you are a member of the national trust £91 per year for 2 people, no bard fences and its great major sparrow should sign it up to the nation trust and make his money that way instead of turning it in to a garden style prison camp
By: jjccc coronet on May 8, 2013
at 7:13 pm
I am a frequent visitor to the arboretum and have been in the five years or so that I have been in the area and I have seen a marked change in the management and development of it. I understand how people with a more established history in the area are more incensed with the changes than I would be (and to some extent I agree), but I do also see that the changes have an element of common sense about them.
I am a member of the SCT (and have been for most of the time I have been walking around there, when it was originally the Friends of Windlesham Arboretum). The marked change came when the FOWA was wound up and replaced by the SCT (which I believe was when the current owner – the Majors Son – took on the mantle). Whilst the SCT has set out a mission statement to further the study of trees and birds it has also clearly set about increasing the revenue of the site. There are several ways this could be done, but the quickest way is to charge an entrance fee (or membership) and the best way to enforce this is to segregate the site. This has led to the introduction of the fencing, the gates with digilocks on and the car park security (although the later has tailed off in recent months). It should be noted that the SCT does have plans to create revenue through other means, including the growing and sale of Christmas trees (which you can see in a closed off enclosure next to OTO), but this will obviously take a few years to prove fruitful.
To give it its dues, the SCT is reasonably communicative when it comes to the changes – there is a twice yearly communication sent out to members which sets what is happening and the members area does have a notice board which also contains further info on what will be done. They are quite contactable (admin@the-sct.org) and do at least ask the members opinions on somethings (even if they are ignored!)
However. I have to agree that the work that I’ve seen done in the last 5 years and the change to the management of the land in the last couple are nothing short of detrimental to the land. This could be short term and give it a couple of years it could be much more visually pleasing and contribute greatly to the ethos of the estate. Or not.
The SCT has chosen to demark its boundaries. This goes hand in hand with the revenue issue, but I think was also born out of necessity following a couple of incidents. There was at least one incident of vehicles being driven around the area adjacent to the A322 and down toward South Farm Road (you can still see the track marks from one not far from the M3 underpass). There were several reports of antisocial behaviour (as mentioned above) and the general footfall was increasing without necessarily the comparative increase in upkeep in investment. I also understand that there was a concern that the relatively unhindered access to the area (off South Farm Road, Oldfarm Road and the back of Broadway Road) there was a risk of travellers setting up camp.
The SCT decided to do this with a hedgerow. Last year there was an extensive bit of work to plant several native species alongside the footpaths that cross the site and around the perimeter. This in itself is commendable – the hedgerow as a habitat is under threat in this country and any positive action to encourage some to establish would be good, it would complement the area and it will probably attract more birds (one of the set out aims of the trust).
However, as with anything in nature, it takes a while for these things to grow, so in order to protect the young saplings and create a boundary in several areas a barbed wire fence has been put up. I am not too sure why barbed wire was chosen. It wouldn’t deter anyone who wants to come in (as you can easily climb it) and it just causes issues with dogs and wildlife. It is also ugly. The newsletter did warn that barbed wire would be used and there are signs up, so its not ‘out of the blue’
Which leads me onto the signs. They are simply awful. I understand that with any new regime there needs to be methods to communicate it to the users, but these signs look like they have been drawn up on a computer, printed and laminated. They appear in the most unlikely of places and are so depressing in their nature. They are almost all prohibition signs and give a general depressing sense to the whole area. I can understand why you would deter BBQ in a wooded area, but not necessarily no picnics I fully expect more signs to come up soon that say ‘No Walking. No Looking. No having fun’. Whoever creates the signs could do worse than consolidating them and making them look a bit better!
The security that was mentioned before was part of the effort to get people to become members. I was on the site the day that there was manned security for the first time at the Car Park off Oldfarm Lane. I would estimate that 60-70% of all vehicles were not members and were refused permission to park (which, if you read the notices it does warn against). Since then, an electric gate has been installed, which means that there is no longer a permanent manned presence, but the signs are still up. I noticed this weekend too that there is something similar being installed along the end of South Farm Road (on the approach to the Harrishaws), which also sticks out like some kind of carbuncle!
The management of the land has also changed dramatically in the last year or so. Last summer the grass was left to grow across virtually the whole site. As the days grew longer this gave a massive unkempt feel to the whole thing which was further exasperated by all the construction work that was going on (at the time). Eventually the grass was cut and on the newsletter it said that it was left to encourage insects for feeding birds. I heard that it was more a direct attempt to cut costs (the diesel for the mower). There has been a lot of work in the last 18 months or so on the thoroughfares across the site. A lot of work has been done on clearly defining the public footpaths and improving the drainage. This includes on the bridleway that bisects the arboretum and would constantly become a quagmire in times of heavy rain. For the whole, these works have been beneficial – a lot of the grassed areas still get flooded when it rains, but the paths are a lot better. The bridlepath has definitely benefited from these works. However, whilst the ends may justify the means, when there are massive 360 excavators parked on the grass, it doesn’t fit in with the ambiance!
There are several other changes to the infrastructure that have annoyed me. A lot of the benches have been removed and many left with the grass around them to grow to the point where they are almost unusable.
The kissing gates that have been installed are a good idea, but impede people with reduced mobility or those with pushchairs. I know of several parents who don’t go there anymore as they can’t get around.
There is a huge pile of arisings at the end of Oldhouse Lane that sits there and seemingly isn’t used for anything.
There was some work undertaken to the balancing pond next to the M3 last year that saw a replacement of the weir into the Windlebrook and the replacement of a lot of fencing on bridle path. Several of the paths around this area were diverted at this point and didn’t reopen, meaning that the wooded area between the houses and the stream are largely inaccessible. The lake closest to the OTO area has now been completely closed off and access restricted around it.
The Chapel in the middle is now inaccessible. I know that there are issues about its stability but very little (if anything) appears to be being done about it. This has also curtailed the annual carol service, which was quite enjoyable.
Since the SCT set up its aim of furthering the study of trees and birds I can’t say that I have seen a marked increase in either of these. There have been some birdboxes and perches installed in the members areas, but I’ve not noticed any direct increase of either. The sceptic in me would also question if this is the primary cause of the trust. Whilst I accept that the SCT isn’t the RSPB, if it was trying to foster a greater understanding of birds, why not set up some kind of bird walks around the area, or set up a notice board to record any interesting observations? The only direct output I have seen in relation to this is the closure of one of the members areas to allow birds to nest in conjunction with an ornithological study from a local school. I have no idea which local school this was (and saw no evidence of them) and we were also told in no uncertain terms that no questions would be answered about the results of this study!
Where I have noticed a definite increase in wildlife is the growth in the number of rabbits and deer. There was an outbreak of miximatosis a couple of years ago that seems to have been curtailed and there seems to be more deer than ever. Whilst this is nice to know and look at, a boom in the population of either could easily be more of a hindered than a help (especially whilst the hedgerow are taking root). I have heard that there was a large scale incident of poaching several years ago which wiped out all the deer that used to reside within the arboretum. Its good to see that they are making a comeback, but its not good for dog owners who have to stop their charges chasing them!
I also heard about the incident involving the deer being put down, but it was explained to me that it was due to a dog attack rather than the fence. There has been a noted effort by the SCT to restrain dogs within the area, which has included requests to keep dogs leashed and keep them out of the waterways. As dog walkers are the primary users of the area I would suggest that it is a negative benefit to start to deter them!
I have not had the pleasure of formally meeting the owner, though I have seen him many times around the place. I understand that he can be a confrontational fellow and I have heard of him challenging people in the area – including someone jogging on the footpath. I know there was an incident a year ago where he was allegedly attacked after speaking to someone who remained in the arboretum after dark. This led to the introduction of the ‘opening times’, which further seems to go against the grain of studying birds and also puts shot to one of the best places around to star gaze. I accept that it is his land (albeit under a trust), but by timing the entrance hours gives further credence to the argument that this is being set up as a commercial enterprise.
There are several annoyances that the SCT does deal with reasonably well. Being downstream of Swift Lane, the stream does occasionally carry some interesting cargo that can get stuck on the wooden bridge by the balancing pond. This is typically cleared up reasonably quickly. The antisocial behaviour seems to have tailed off. Despite some early teething troubles, the gates to the members area works well and within them works to the bridges has been done to keep most areas accessible.
I have heard rumours recently that the family are looking to sell the land. I am not too sure how this would be possible, given that the land is supposed to be held in trust and I am fairly sure that any development would be restricted.
Generally, the atmosphere of the entire site is quite pleasant. I enjoy walking around it and regardless of the weather it always seems to be quite an interesting place. I still continue to ‘discover’ new areas that I didn’t know existed from time to time. There are a lot of birds (especially water birds) and considering its location bordering two main roads it does offer some sanctum from the general hubbub of modern life. I hope that it does continue to offer the respite that it gives and that, despite the seemingly gradual decline in the last couple of years, the long term benefits outweigh the short term pain. I would very much like to see some kind of committee set up to represent the users, where opinions are sought and listened to by the owners.
By: roygbiv on May 28, 2013
at 10:56 am
Just visited the once beautiful Windlesham Arboretum expecting to return home full of the joys of spring – how wrong was I. Rather than Rhododendrons in all their glory, you are faced with a bouquet of barbed wire wherever you look. Barbed wire fences force you to walk in a required direction (mainly alongside traffic). Dictatorial signs warn you basically not to do anything short of breathe!
One question for our Tim Dodds – with a health and safety hat on, are the SCT well advised to fence public footpaths,with barbed wire? Whose liability will it be if a dog or child is injured? Surely the barbed wire will injure wild animals too! Hardly animal friendly!
In their efforts to encourage wildlife, the SCT are creating a distinctly hostile environment – so sad
By: Local Resident on May 29, 2013
at 1:06 pm
@ Local Resident.
There is a good set of guidance with regard to maintaining public rights of way across private land here;
https://www.gov.uk/public-rights-of-way-rights-and-responsibilities
Otherwise I would expect Occupiers Liability to come into force – as a rule of thumb, the Occupier of the land has a duty of care over a Visitor to offer a reasonable standard of care. Things like effective warnings, forseeability and if there was any trespass would also be taken into consideration.
By: roygbiv on May 29, 2013
at 2:09 pm